Femininity

[Like Ra]

This is what I meant in the general TS/TG thread. Look at the body position and the pointing arm of the girl:

   

No man would do that unconsciously! Only if he's trying to imitate a woman, and even in this case it would not look that natural.

[no smile]

I do it... Why would it not be natural? I absolutely don't see any link between your sex (or gender but more discutable) and some pointing gesture...

Such gestures are linked to feminity but this is a construction, nothing natural here.

[Like Ra]

I do it... Why would it not be natural?

Any photos? 😉 Internally you might think that you do it a particular way, externally it might look differently.

I absolutely don't see any link between your sex (or gender but more discutable) and some pointing gesture...

That's the point of this thread. Because I do see the differences, and I'm trying to illustrate them. If you have photos or videos proving the opposite - please post them here, I'm very curious.

Another point of this thread is this: https://www.likera.com/blog/wp/archives/69543 😉

[no smile]

So, while there are tons of scientific work (on many branches on science : gender studies, sociology, philosophy, anthropology, ...) demonstrating how these are socially constructed and not natural/genetic/..., you are trying to prove via photos and videos that the main behaviour/gestures seen everywhere* on our societies are sex/gender based?  Well, that's very scientific 😉
*meaning photo of this minority behaving oppositely is obviously rare and not relevant compared to the majority.

Now, while writing this answered I felt that I needed to read the full of it before assume the rest and I feel there is a lot of mixes... 
Here is some things in order of reading (opinion might have changed since this thread is 2 years old)

Seeing your first post, it feels like it says it's the opposite as now so I don't get your point...

Femininity (like masculinity) is a gender "feature" (not a "sex" feature, like the terms "male" or "female"), what means both "males" and "females" can be "feminine" and/or "masculine". 

But what is femininity for you? How would you define it? Any examples? Photos? Drawings? What is "utter feminine" in your opinion?

Related threads and posts:

Femininity as fetish

But I do think femininity can be a fetish.

About the physical/genetic encoded femininity, there have been research on the dna from old pré-patriarchal civilisation where lots of these differences are quite absent (there was no height differences at that time for example) and starting to appear with patriarchy on the timeline.  These findings tends to say that some of them might very well be linked to the social role assigned to women (being fragile, elegant, not carrying heavy things, not taking much place ...) by patriarchy.
Having elbows close to the body or knee together is part of a societal construction, like the small feet of the Chinese is linked to their feet having been crushed or centuries if too small shoes because its was more ravishing for men.  In contrary, as men should be strong and working, you need to show you muscle.  I don't walk with my elbow far from my waist like this Captain America.  Maybe because I have no interest in showing I can do the effort of getting this position for a long time...

About the other illustration, I would find my GF to behave like the white queen very strange.   And about the animated girls preparing for running, well, the first one is clearly on show but the second one (and all others) is much less trying to impress...

So, part of femininity is a mask, a construction, part is the consequences of this mask having been forced for centuries.  It's not linked to your sex but to the role assigned to it in our society.

But, again, YES, it can be fetish as well as masculinity is a fetish for some women.

And you asked for a photo of a guy being feminine right?  Well, no offence but I think these photo are much more feminine than masculine :
       

[Like Ra]

Typical, isn't it?

       

And this is also very feminine:

   

[Like Ra]

while there are tons of scientific work

Any links?

you are trying to prove via photos and videos

I'm trying to understand

it feels like it says it's the opposite as now so I don't get your point.

That's what I thought at the beginning, now my opinion is changing. Natural process, you can see it in many threads here. And that's the point! To understand "how it works".

But I do think femininity can be a fetish.

It's my fetish, so it definitely can 😁

About the physical/genetic encoded femininity, there have been research on the dna from old pré-patriarchal civilisation where lots of these differences

What differences?

These findings

Any links?

Having elbows close to the body or knee together is part of a societal construction, like the small feet of the Chinese is linked to their feet having been crushed or centuries if too small shoes because its was more ravishing for men.

Unlike Chinese feet, there are no physical constraints for elbows, and there were no for knees (pencil skirts appeared much later 😋)

About the other illustration, I would find my GF to behave like the white queen very strange.

Of course, because these gestures are exaggerated. The point of these photo is to pinpoint the elbow/hand/arm position/angle I was talking about.

So, part of femininity is a mask, a construction, part is the consequences of this mask having been forced for centuries.  It's not linked to your sex but to the role assigned to it in our society.

Agree. I'm interested in what these parts actually are. What do you think?

 Well, no offence but I think these photo are much more feminine than masculine :

Thanks much! That was the idea, but these poses are not natural for me. Like, for example, these ones:
https://www.likera.com/blog/wp/archives/69344
https://www.likera.com/blog/wp/archives/69357

Thanks much to my wife for helping me with arms/legs/feet/torso positions!

[no smile]

After a night sleep, I was going to that probably, you were acting on these photo, but don't we everyday?

First, on the photography :
First one : Personally, I don't sit like that.  Most of the time, I cross my legs.  This pose is called manspreading and it's cultural.  Out of this debate, I find this pose juste selfish and annoying because you just take all the space from the others.  And don't tell me you have never seen a women sitting like that.

       


https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley...2.02a00040
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manspreading
https://www.academia.edu/13046690/Sitting_Like_a_Man
https://medium.com/@cvans/the-false-biol...89abd709f5


On the second one, the women clearly takes a pose, as well as you did in your photos.  I've never seen a women posing like that while being alone on the street.  More, you intend too say that women alway have blow together.  I find the men to take not so much space.  More over, the shape you intend to enhance with the lines are false.  Why don't you also underline the female shoulder?  They are more straight that gthe guy on the photo.  Because of the pose OK.  But this is no everyday photography.

On the third, well, I have not photo graph but I do pinch my lip when I find something hot.  This is more about body language.  This indicates you are holding something back.  Take this photography :

   

It's taken from this article :
https://drlillianglassbodylanguageblog.w.../gestures/
If you read it, you'll it interpret the lip bite a whole differently (search for LIPS)
Of course, if you see lipsticked lips (intended to be women) you link it to seduction and a lot of fantasies.  But I don't recall my GF doing it, in contrary of me  😉
Again, natural for male and women, interpretation depends on the context.

   

while there are tons of scientific work

Any links?

Sure, not difficult to find :
http://literaturacomparata.ro/Site_Acta/...9.2011.pdf
http://ijelr.in/3.1.16/27-29%20ARCHANA%2...0SINGH.pdf
https://www.academia.edu/39349453/Constr...nder_Roles
https://www.academia.edu/302074/The_Walk...escription
http://www.personal.psu.edu/bfr3/blogs/a...ender.html
https://www.livinganthropologically.com/...tructions/
Even a whole cursus :
https://www.academia.edu/10489101/2006-2...STRUCTIONS
https://www.academia.edu/10489261/2006-2...STRUCTIONS

you are trying to prove via photos and videos

I'm trying to understand

Well, of course, we all do  😉 , but trying to understand only with photography, without context prevent you from having a full analysis. 

About the physical/genetic encoded femininity, there have been research on the dna from old pré-patriarchal civilisation where lots of these differences

What differences?

Differences like women's being men being taller than women, being lighter and having smaller foot where not present on the first paleolithic human bones.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015...scientists
https://electrodes.files.wordpress.com/2...t_1931.pdf
https://journals.openedition.org/clio/11364

Having elbows close to the body or knee together is part of a societal construction, like the small feet of the Chinese is linked to their feet having been crushed or centuries if too small shoes because its was more ravishing for men.

Unlike Chinese feet, there are no physical constraints for elbows, and there were no for knees (pencil skirts appeared much later 😋)

Well, about elbow, do you have links proving that women have their elbow and knees together?  Appart from their role?  Meaning there would be a physical constraint leading women to have their elbow  and knee nearer than men?  Do you walk with your knee 30cm appart?  Do you never sit knee together or have never seen a man knees together and elbow against their body?  You seem to believe man always have their knees and elbow appart as opposite to women but only when it suits you.  See the photo of the guy sitting knees crossed I posted up.  I'd like to see a scientific resource stating about such physical differences combined with another demonstrating these cannot be gender implied.

About the other illustration, I would find my GF to behave like the white queen very strange.

Of course, because these gestures are exaggerated. The point of these photo is to pinpoint the elbow/hand/arm position/angle I was talking about.

Yes, these are exaggerated role expression, so they are not unconscious.  Nothing "natural" here, natural meaning unconscious.  You show photography out of their context with probably lots of role conscious role expression to try to show some "unconsciously natural" differences.
And here, there is a mix between physical (sexual) differences, gender/social differences and physical differences implied by centuries and centuries of forced gender roles...

So, part of femininity is a mask, a construction, part is the consequences of this mask having been forced for centuries.  It's not linked to your sex but to the role assigned to it in our society.

Agree. I'm interested in what these parts actually are. What do you think?

Well, I said part because I don't know the extend of the research neither your definition of feminity.  If you include physical feminity (straight naked, without make-up, clothing, role gesture, ...), part of them, as I aeady state, is dued to historical gender role/restriction, part is not but there is a high scientific debate on which is and which isn't...  And we'll probably never be able to fully state these but I'm pretty sure that without the pure sexual differences most of our body's are the same.

For the rest, I'm convinced they are pure societal construction, as they are for societal comportment by animals.  I recall a French radio programm called "les epaules de Darwin" when they once spoke about research showing the same animal race having different societal comportment in function of their places/group.  But these are all new research and there is not much paper about it and not easy to find.

Anyway, we need construction on our society, but we should be free to pick which part suits our personality without pressure.  If we are all the same, it would not be funny, but if there where not "deviant" personalities, it would also be.  I used quote because I meant every little deviation of the traditional gender role.  These construction allow fantasies and everything.  But I don't recognise in the traditional masculine definition and there should be no pressure about it, nor about what we love, and we amongst fetishist should be well aware of that.

 Well, no offence but I think these photo are much more feminine than masculine :

Thanks much! That was the idea, but these poses are not natural for me. Like, for example, these ones:
https://www.likera.com/blog/wp/archives/69344
https://www.likera.com/blog/wp/archives/69357

Thanks much to my wife for helping me with arms/legs/feet/torso positions!

Yeah, I just love these photo  😉
But if they are not natural for you, they don't look unnatural so, that's the point. 

No man would do that unconsciously! Only if he's trying to imitate a woman, and even in this case it would not look that natural.

You don't seem awkward in these photos so why would a men taking women position not looking natural because he's a men?  Of course you can find photo where it's the case, as much as photo where it's not.  Again, it depends of the context and the goal of the photography.

[Like Ra]

Wow, what a post! Will read it thoroughly and respond later. For now I just want to rephrase what I'd like to understand:

o- What is femininity? What is that subtle thing which creates warm wave of goosebumps inside me? It's not a simple women - men = femininity equation.
o- What does femininity encompass?
o- What causes "feminine behaviour"? Parenting? Socialization? Education? Monkeying and imitation? Social expectations? Egregores? Pavlov's conditioning? Memory? All levels of memory? Hormones? Anatomy? All together?
o- What part is responsible for what and for what extent?

[no smile]

Well, it took me quite a time 😉

I think you are mixing femininity with what attracts you and this is not the same. What attracts you may not be all femininity but probably part of it. What attracts you depends on you own
But part could be masculine too. These are very complex questions...
I did not fully read its but it seems like wikipedia has a pretty good article on femininity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femininity
You should maybe have a look at Netflix series called "Sex explained". The second episode about attraction is quite informative. (EDIT and the first about sexual fantasies too 😉 )

o- What causes "feminine behaviour"? Parenting? Socialization? Education? Monkeying and imitation? Social expectations? Egregores? Pavlov's conditioning? Memory? All levels of memory? Anatomy? All together?
o- What part is responsible for what and for what extent?

Well, you should get a bunch of gender studies cursus cause this is a wide research 😉

[Like Ra]

I think you are mixing femininity with what attracts you and this is not the same. What attracts you may not be all femininity but probably part of it.

Yes, you got my point 😉

I did not fully read its but it seems like wikipedia has a pretty good article on femininity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femininity

Been there 😊