Does free will exist? Do we have a choice?

[MasterDQ]

I disagree completely with your interpretation of quantum mechanics. Even the devise on which you are typing is completely ruled by quantum mechanics, and although you may argue that it still behaves as one would expect from macroscopic rules, this will stop immediately once you enter the realm of quantum computing.

This is why I specifically carved out 1b as a separate model from 1a.

It's worth noting however, that in the double-slit experiment for example, the pattern of hits on the sensor always ends up the same. If you entangle two particles, the sum of their entangled properties always equals zero (e.g. clockwise + counter-clockwise).

Anyway, nature is chaotic, which means that even extremely small causes can have macroscopic effects.

Sort of, hence my mention of e.g. weather forecasting. But you need to be careful when defining things like "chaotic" or "random" because the laws of physics are absolutely ironclad, even if they allow a modicum of chaos, real or apparent.

And those quantum effects fall is the domain of small causes. Whether a positron electron pair pops up from the vacuum for a very short time is totally random, but it can cause effects.

The "totally random" bit is why I make a point of talking about un-caused effects. As for the nature of quantum stuff being small causes... sure, sometimes. But try mapping out what would have to go EXACTLY right for a single quantum event to cause you to pick apples instead of oranges. Your hypothetical positron must cause a runaway cascade to have any impact, and positive feedback loops and such are exceedingly rare in nature - negative feedback loops tend to rule.

But still and all, granting you all of this, you still only get to the idea of random will.

I think that in order to come up with answers, as so often, you should first understand the question (where did we hear that before?). What do you call free will? To me this absolutely not clear.

See (2) in my first post (did you even read beyond 1a?) If free will is just "I follow my programming" then the phrase is meaningless (literal falling rocks have free will now), and if it's "I follow my programming + the odd bit of RNG input" it's still nonsense, because you're not actually making a choice - you CAN'T. It's not like you decide where/when/how the quantum effects pop up and interfere with your clockwork brain. The best you can say is "well I have the illusion of free will" which is... philosophically unsound, to put it mildly.

[Zooy]

See (2) in my first post (did you even read beyond 1a?)

I did read your whole post shortly after you posted it.
Then I thought for a while and decided to just start with one point. I may or may not spend more attention on discussing the other points.

[Zooy]

It's worth noting, however, that in the double-slit experiment, for example, the pattern of hits on the sensor always ends up the same.

If you fire a single particle, it ends up at one specific space. If you do this a million times, you will get this pattern statistically. But that is the same as throwing a coin a million times and getting roughly half a million results for each side. Plus or minus statistical deviations. Each individual electron going through the slits gives a random result, according to a probability distribution. As soon as a process depends only on very few, or a single quantum event, you do get randomness involved. The same way as when a single coin toss may make you either poor or rich.
This is like Schrödinger's cat. It will be either dead or alive when you look.

[sam_henry]

"Free will" was mentioned several times in many threads. Let's a have a dedicated one.

What are your thoughts on "free will" and  "free choice"?

The brain has to many safeguards in place to be truly overwritten

[sam_henry]

We always have a choice!  No one can really make us do something we do not want too.

[Like Ra]

Related post: https://www.likera.com/forum/mybb/Thread...0#pid69920

[VulpineFoxs]

The existence of free will... I will admit I have not done any serious amount of research or put too much thought into it. It is, however, intuitive to me that free will, as is commonly described, is a misnomer. Now, my intuition might very well be wrong, but as this doesn't affect me or how I live my life, I don't think it matters all that much.

Why do I say that free will is a misnomer? Well, free will is generally described as the ability to chose freely. Say you have choice A and choice B. You can freely choose either.

Well yes, but no. Our choices aren't made in a vacuum. They are made based very literally on our entire life experience up until this very point.

If a hypothetical objective outside observer had to the power to perfectly rewind time to before we made the choice, no matter how many times they rewinded, we would always make the same choice. Because why would the choice change? There is always a series of reasons behind every choice we make, reasons that more often than we are not consciously aware of.

And those reasons will stay the same no matter how many times one rewirds the universe.

Now, I understand that I am committing the sin of saying a bunch of stuff while providing 0 citation to back me up.

What I've said is worthless in terms of proving anything, one way or the other. It's just my personal very limited perspective, that makes intuitive sense to me.

[VulpineFoxs]

We always have a choice!  No one can really make us do something we do not want too.

Indeed. No one can make you do something you don't want to.

However, what people can do is slowly and steadily manipulate you until the "you" of the future is perfectly willing to do something the "you of now" would never do.

We change simply by existing. We acquire new life experiences. We learn new things. Change is natural. The you in 10 years will always be different from the you of now.

A skilled manipulator has the ability to guide the way you change.

[dustymoon1]

https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comment...s_but_new/

A reddit link to a new paper on the topic.

[sam_henry]

We always have a choice!  No one can really make us do something we do not want too.

Indeed. No one can make you do something you don't want to.

However, what people can do is slowly and steadily manipulate you until the "you" of the future is perfectly willing to do something the "you of now" would never do.

We change simply by existing. We acquire new life experiences. We learn new things. Change is natural. The you in 10 years will always be different from the you of now.

A skilled manipulator has the ability to guide the way you change.

I agree to a point battered women syndrome is a very good example but I think one can over come anything when they really put their mind to it.