Does free will exist? Do we have a choice?

[Like Ra]

I think we got caught in a problem of semantics in the past few posts.

Always! 😁

I am more referring to "free" while you evolved to the "free of".

They do not exist without each other, do they? Like "bad" without "good", "North" without "South", "girls" without "boys"... Hang on... I doubt about the latter...

the discussion started out about "free will". That is a tricky thing.

Yes 😉

The catholic church always denied that animals have a spirit, and if evolution is right, neither should humans.

Yes!

Applying classical mechanics, if the in-state and the external stimulus are fixed, the outcome is fixed.

Yes!

This is of course for now totally outside the realm of science.

I would say, that quantum physics is outside of the realm of common sense either 😁

Although it does not have this scientific reasoning I believe this is in line with what Buddhism advocates.

Buddhism is very scientific, because it's based on facts, experiments, discussions. In fact, it's even more scientific and "independent", because of absence of dogmas, the necessity to fight for grants, and the Hirsch index fetish. I remember the Dalai lama once said, (loosely quoting) "If the science proves, that our points are wrong, we will have to reconsider them".

Unfortunately we are now in the field of philosophy and formal experiments do not exist.

What means we are "free" to make any guess and "freely" discuss it, using formal logic (just like they did in India thousands years ago, that why Buddhism began to win over Hinduism in India and Taoism/Confucianism in China).

Hence we may not know an answer to this question for a long time to come, if ever.

Yes! And my current point is - "free will" is an oxymoron 😉

[Like Ra]

2. "free of" as in "free of worries" or "free of obsessions".
I am more referring to "free" while you evolved to the "free of".

And there is a reason for that: https://www.likera.com/forum/mybb/Thread...3#pid30393 😉

[Like Ra]

Then comes quantum mechanics and it makes it all completely unclear.

Quantum mechanics vs common sense

Take a look at these three statements:

1.     When someone observes an event happening, it really happened.
   
2.     It is possible to make free choices, or at least, statistically random choices.
   
3.     A choice made in one place can't instantly affect a distant event. (Physicists call this "locality".)
   

and pick any two, you can't have all three 😊

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x
https://www.sciencealert.com/a-new-quant...o-question
https://www.space.com/quantum-paradox-th...ality.html

[HypnoMix]

Then comes quantum mechanics and it makes it all completely unclear.

Quantum mechanics vs common sense

Take a look at these three statements:

1.     When someone observes an event happening, it really happened.
   
2.     It is possible to make free choices, or at least, statistically random choices.
   
3.     A choice made in one place can't instantly affect a distant event. (Physicists call this "locality".)
   

and pick any two, you can't have all three 😊

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0990-x
https://www.sciencealert.com/a-new-quant...o-question
https://www.space.com/quantum-paradox-th...ality.html

A neat test anyone can do with a deck of cards. Just remove all jacks, queens, and kings. Then leave A's and 2-10's. Shuffle really good and cut the deck if you want. 

Now, any possibilities exist until you see the top card. Guess a number 1-10. The aces are low, so that is number 1. If you guess say 6 then flip the card over. If you're right, keep the card. If you're wrong, place it out in front and build a board of cards, so you know what's not in the deck, so you don't guess 6 if all 4 sixes are aeady out of the deck. Fun way to keep your mind sharp as well. If you got a super memory, then don't build a board of cards and discard the wrong guesses. That's the expert version. I do the easy version myself cause my memory sucks!!! lol.

So I pick 1 and 3

[Like Ra]

A neat test anyone can do with a deck of cards.

What is this test supposed to tell?

[HypnoMix]

A neat test anyone can do with a deck of cards.

What is this test supposed to tell?

Well, it's the observer effect. Like 1 and 0 at the same time. All possibilities exist until you see the first card. Then as you go through the deck, your choice when you try to guess the card is the locality effect.

[HypnoMix]

Uh the movie the matrix? "You aeady made the choice, now you have to understand it."

Edit,

so the choice is 6 right, then flip over the card. Right or wrong. That's you understanding the choice.

[HypnoMix]

Mystery solved if you ask me. 😁

[HypnoMix]

Source: https://youtu.be/1qdyNoe3q2A

[Like Ra]

"You aeady made the choice, now you have to understand it."

Did you know that the brain makes decisions up to 30 seconds before we consciously know about it? Moreover, the brain sends a calming signal telling that it's "us" who made the decision.