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Does free will exist? Do we have a choice?
#21
(15 May 2020, 17:41 )Like Ra Wrote: If "The Life" leaves you with "no choice" possibly "It" wants to tell you something. You might have missed the early warnings
In my mind the better approach would be to learn to recognize the "road signs" at the very beginning. This is also a choice.

You can choose to pursue your goal (Is it really "your" goal? Is it a society-inflicted "goal"? Is it a self-importance driven goal?) and follow what you think the shortest way is ignoring the road signs until it's either too late, or, if you manage to brake in time, until you return back to where the first opportunity to choose another route appears.

Or you can choose to follow the road signs with the intention to progress in life.

Then you can choose either follow the way you have chosen or choose another one. Will you loose the freedom of choice as soon as you choose to follow a particular way without "looking back"? Or is this the ultimate freedom - enjoying the path you have once chosen without doubts, hesitations, lingering around, going back&forward&sideways?

(15 May 2020, 18:49 )Zooy Wrote: We do not understand enough of quantum mechanics to be able to say whether things are deterministic.
It's both and neither. It's one entity which show duality depending on the point of limited view. Like light. It can be a wave, it can be particles, which in turn are just vibrations of a standing wave.

It might look accidental, because we might not know the underlying laws yet.
It might look deterministic, because we might look at it from a point of view of a lower dimensionality.
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#22
(15 May 2020, 15:40 )Zooy Wrote: This is completely opposite to what happens in strategic games like chess and go. There, part of higher strategy is to leave your opponent few choices and maximise your own. There is even a word for this concept in the game of go: "yosu miru", which is a way of forcing your opponent to fix their strategy, while you keep your options open. I would not say that an opponent with hardly any choices has more freedom.
In competitions both (or more) "chose" to "play" this "game" against the other. (They could choose not to, BTW) And the ultimate goal is to become better at "playing" the "game". Winning or losing in one "battle" teaches both parties, both parties gain experience and knowledge, what makes them more "free" in next games. Also, opponents show you your weakest sides you should either protect or make them stronger.

The idea of various teachings is that your Life is not your opponent, you should not "play" against it, but rather learn to follow and use it to gain experience and knowledge. The Life brings you opponents to help you progress. You can choose to ignore or fight it, or accept and use it. Recognizing the "road signs" in the "opponents" or "problems" as early as possible is what I call "follow and use what Life brings you to propel you forward".

Fighting as well as ignoring problems means you are not willing to learn, what you have to. The severity of problems might increase to finally gain your attention. If the "road signs" are being kept ignored, the amount of possible choices will decrease, until only two are left: "Proceed with what you've been doing and die" (what means, you are hopeless, you do not want to learn), or "Stop and reverse" (the broken bridge metaphor). Limiting the choices is the last chance to give you freedom to survive.

TL;DR: I like the saying "Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt" (The fates lead the willing and drag the unwilling), what brilliantly summarizes it 😊
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#23
(10 Dec 2019, 23:47 )Like Ra Wrote: Hence the interest in bondage, self-bondage, hypnosis, femdom or maledom. We want to to trade our freedom for freedom of having no choices, for freedom of having no free will.
This was discussed in "The Brothers Karamazov" by Fyodor Dostoevsky. To be freed from wishes, desires and temptations, novices sacrifice their freedom to Elders ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_(Christianity) )
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#24
(25 May 2020, 00:19 )Like Ra Wrote:
(15 May 2020, 15:40 )Zooy Wrote: This is completely opposite to what happens in strategic games like chess and go. There, part of higher strategy is to leave your opponent few choices and maximise your own. There is even a word for this concept in the game of go: "yosu miru", which is a way of forcing your opponent to fix their strategy, while you keep your options open. I would not say that an opponent with hardly any choices has more freedom.
In competitions both (or more) "chose" to "play" this "game" against the other. (They could choose not to, BTW) And the ultimate goal is to become better at "playing" the "game". Winning or losing in one "battle"  teaches both parties, both parties gain experience and knowledge, what makes them more "free" in next games. Also, opponents show you your weakest sides you should either protect or make them stronger.

The idea of various teachings is that your Life is not your opponent, you should not "play" against it, but rather learn to follow and use it to gain experience and knowledge. The Life brings you opponents to help you progress. You can choose to ignore or fight it, or accept and use it. Recognizing the "road signs" in the "opponents" or "problems" as early as possible is what I call "follow and use what Life brings you to propel you forward".

Fighting as well as ignoring problems means you are not willing to learn, what you have to. The severity of problems might increase to finally gain your attention. If the "road signs" are being kept ignored, the amount of possible choices will decrease, until only two are left: "Proceed with what you've been doing and die" (what means, you are hopeless, you do not want to learn), or "Stop and reverse" (the broken bridge metaphor). Limiting the choices is the last chance to give you freedom to survive.

TL;DR: I like the saying "Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt" (The fates lead the willing and drag the unwilling), what brilliantly summarizes it 😊

There is a big difference between playing 'amicable' games and playing in a tournament for a lot of money. The last one is not about learning, but about winning. It is war and the opponent is the enemy, even when after the game you may have a beer together. That part is not about the learning, even when you may learn from it. And it is also about the adrenaline. I have played in such tournaments. You may say: it is learning about waging war, but I tend to think it is not just that.

A life that follows the given "path of the willing" looks to me like a life of sheep. Most people are very happy with that. It sounds to me like a medieval concept of heaven. Most progress for humanity has been made by people who wanted to be different from the sheep. This is one of the big differences between eastern and western philosophy. I remember a discussion with a Japanese colleague who explained to me that in the eastern view of science nature was chaotic and hence they never went into the systematic study of nature that the Greek philosophy advocated, even when they had very smart people as well. This teaches a completely different outlook on the world.

Personally I cannot switch off my mind. If I lie on the beach, after two minutes I am bored and think of things to do. Creative things. My mind hops around randomly and starts correlating things that seem uncorrelated and suddenly there is a good idea. It has aways given me great pleasure.
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#25
(25 May 2020, 23:09 )Zooy Wrote: It is war and the opponent is the enemy
Exactly, but The Life is not your enemy. It'd your partner you live together all your life. Actually, it is You. So, fighting with "the road signs" and fighting with the challenges, it's like fighting with yourself. And in this battle there are no winners.

(25 May 2020, 23:09 )Zooy Wrote: A life that follows the given "path of the willing" looks to me like a life of sheep.
"Path of the willing" is the path of not fighting with the life, read - not fighting with yourself. Do you fight the electricity in the power outlet? Will you continue to stick your fingers in it even after "got beaten by the unknown devil"? That does not prevent you from investigating the electricity, though.

Or thing about the fire. It's usually hot. When you accept this fact, you become more careful, and use thermometers instead your hand. Then you might discover, that some fires are not that hot and do not burn.

(25 May 2020, 23:09 )Zooy Wrote: Personally I cannot switch off my mind.
This is normal for "meditationally untrained persons" 😊 Internal dialogue might stop at some "training level". And this is quite a pleasure, I must say!

(25 May 2020, 23:09 )Zooy Wrote: If I lie on the beach, after two minutes I am bored
That's why I do not lie on the beach 😁 Unless it's a concentration exersice (read - meditation). And no, meditations are not boring 😊
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#26
(25 May 2020, 23:09 )Zooy Wrote: I remember a discussion with a Japanese colleague who explained to me that in the eastern view of science nature was chaotic and hence they never went into the systematic study of nature that the Greek philosophy advocated
Errrrmmmm..... WUT???? What about Chinese medicine and other books from ~3000 years ago? Or classification of herbs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghan_Lun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Neijing

What about Indians? They had perfect scientific systems thousands years ago, well before the Greeks. Survived texts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushruta_Samhita
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charaka_Samhita

What about Hindu cosmology from much earlier?

I wouldn't call any of them "chaotic"...
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#27
(26 May 2020, 00:33 )Like Ra Wrote:
(25 May 2020, 23:09 )Zooy Wrote: I remember a discussion with a Japanese colleague who explained to me that in the eastern view of science nature was chaotic and hence they never went into the systematic study of nature that the Greek philosophy advocated
Errrrmmmm..... WUT???? What about Chinese medicine and other books from ~3000 years ago? Or classification of herbs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghan_Lun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Neijing

What about Indians? They had perfect scientific systems thousands years ago, well before the Greeks. Survived texts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushruta_Samhita
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charaka_Samhita

What about Hindu cosmology from much earlier?

I wouldn't call any of them "chaotic"...


This discussion was about physics, and more about China/Japan. India is a completely different case, also because there was a lot of exchange between the west and India. In that sense the story of the zero is quite interesting (B.L. van der Waerden: "ontwakende wetenschap" about Egyptian, Babylonian and Greek mathematics). The Greek astronomers needed something to indicate orders of magnitude and put for that an o-mikron for the Greek word of nothing. Then in India, when they studied Greek astronomy, it was realised that this could be useful for many more things and they added it to their own positional system.
Earlier there was also the extremely important exchange in which writing was brought from the middle east, where it was invented around 3000 BC, to India and China. Pythagoras also picked up a lot in Babylon.
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#28
(26 May 2020, 00:09 )Like Ra Wrote:
(25 May 2020, 23:09 )Zooy Wrote: Personally I cannot switch off my mind.
This is normal for "meditationally untrained persons" 😊 Internal dialogue might stop at some "training level". And this is quite a pleasure, I must say!

I do have my own version of controlling my mind. I have self-learned it over many years of bad (hereditary) headaches. It does not involve switching off my mind. It moves my mind to another time when I do not have a headache.
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#29
(26 May 2020, 08:19 )Zooy Wrote: It does not involve switching off my mind.
Ah, OK, sorry, I did not mean "to switch it off completely" 😊 Yogis understand 16 levels of consciousness. I don't know what they can and what they cannot switch off. The basic idea of meditation is to switch from randomness ("monkey mind") to something controlled (actually, what you do). Yogis call it pratyahara ("remove unnecessary"), dharana ("concentrate on something") and dhyana ("merge with something").
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#30
I think we got caught in a problem of semantics in the past few posts.
A bit of a confusion between "free" and "free of".
1. "free" as in free will meaning "today I will have vanilla ice-cream and tomorrow
    I will have strawberry ice-cream."
2. "free of" as in "free of worries" or "free of obsessions".
I am more referring to "free" while you evolved to the "free of".
Indeed, if you follow what nature offers you and do not fight it, you are free of
most problems (exceptions are if you have no job and get hungry etc.)

In my eyes the discussion started out about "free will". That is a tricky thing.
In medieval times and most religions humans are a body and a spirit and the
spirit takes the decisions for which it will be held accountable after the body dies.
Once you move to the end of the 19-th century, after Darwin and with classical
mechanics fully established, things are different. The catholic church always 
denied that animals have a spirit, and if evolution is right, neither should humans.
Applying classical mechanics, if the in-state and the external stimulus are fixed, the
outcome is fixed. This would deny free will completely in the same way that when you
drop a ball, it cannot decide "today I am not going to fall".
Then comes quantum mechanics and it makes it all completely unclear. Now only
probabilities of the outcome are fixed. This means that same in-states and external
stimuli can give different results, which then looks like we may have a choice after
all and again there is room for a non-physical spirit that would control the quantum
mechanical phase. This is of course for now totally outside the realm of science.
It would also imply that this is also present in all living things.
Although it does not have this scientific reasoning I believe this is in line with
what Buddhism advocates. Unfortunately we are now in the field of philosophy and
formal experiments do not exist. Hence we may not know an answer to this question
for a long time to come, if ever.
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