Femininity

[Like Ra]

2 "sexual" sets of genders do intersect a lot and are not exclusive.

In the context of our discussion (masculinity/femininity) we can ignore any other genders and follow the definition:

"Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. "

So, we have two buckets. At this particular time, in this particular situation it's either masculine or feminine. A dichotomy.

[Like Ra]

gender=biological_differences + social_differences

There is also an internal "psychological factor" - "a personal sense of one's own gender", which might intersect with biological sex and/or social factors. And it also changes with time and conditions, just like the social factors.

We can go to as many details as we want, but "in real life" it's still back to that "internal personal sense". E.g. right now I think/feel that this trait is feminine. Whatever mathematics you throw at me, right now, right here I have this feeling. For example, I define "that gesture" as typical feminine, and if a man does the same gesture, I might say, that it looks awkward, or it looks feminine or will not notice anything, because "the gesture" is not supported by other traits required for the gesture to be called "feminine".

And this is exactly what I mentioned here:

Let's say "a feminine feature", which consists of not just one ("a dot" in the graph), but a set ("an area" on the graph) of traits. And in this case, shared traits combined with not shared traits make a feature, which *I* define as feminine or masculine. So far this is the best explanation I can come up with.

[Like Ra]

And here comes the 1000$ dollars question

I have two:

- What parts of femininity/masculinity are objective and what subjective?
- What femininity/masculinity traits are "physically" (anatomically, physiologically, chemically, etc) defined.

The rest can be derived from these two (or ignored 😁 )

[Like Ra]

Walking with heels forced together is not (at start) a feminine way to walk, it's a submissive way to walk.

Just imagine what it looks when a woman walks with feet apart, as if she's on skis. It's about aesthetics and grace, not BDSM. A very dominant woman would also walk with knees and feet close to each other.

[no smile]

Walking with heels forced together is not (at start) a feminine way to walk, it's a submissive way to walk.

Just imagine what it looks when a woman walks with feet apart, as if she's on skis. It's about aesthetics and grace, not BDSM.  A very dominant woman would also walk with knees and feet close to each other.

Yes, But a man walking feet appart is also not aesthetic I think, and as I aeady said, we (or maybe just I it seems) most of the time walk feet together.  And grace is about beauty and sexyness. 

And for the gender definition you gave, well, then I won't follow a discussion about something as complicated as gender vs sex, masculinity vs feminity, social vs biological behaviour, etc...  If we wipe away decades of social and anthropological studies by redefining those terms to our agreement...  That's exactly what I was talking about searching fact to confirm theory instead of making a theory over all facts.

I'm not an expert in those domain.  I barely had some good basic lecture/book, derived my opinion about what's wrong in our system, but there is still plenty to understand.  And I won't go on a quest of searching after having made a new definition which we'll stick to it even if something does not fit in.

EDIT : removed paragraph

I you want to discuss what's typically feminine or masculine in our society and common to everyone, following as consequences every stereotype.  Well, off course we'll agree that cuteness is feminine and crossed leg also.  And we'll get back to the fact that a beautiful ages business men crossing leg is not awkward but since it's not relevant to feminity or masculinity, we'll keep throwing it away.  And if the goal is just to underlines the strict differences/restriction of our society, well, don't mind me...

[no smile]

A very dominant woman would also walk with knees and feet close to each other.

Well, of course, can you walk in heels feet apart?

Still she can gauge you feet apparts :
           

And yes, about the middle one, she's more like "I'm dominant but I prefer you to take and fuck me".

[no smile]

Just imagine what it looks when a woman walks with feet apart, as if she's on skis. It's about aesthetics and grace, not BDSM.  A very dominant woman would also walk with knees and feet close to each other.

It's not about grace.  Grace is supposed to be a characteristic : natural, effortless.

Pencil skirt force you to walk that way and as I recall nobody walk by having is knees always together (in direction of walk) naturally.  Again, women are supposed to be submissive, less active.  A pencil skirt shows a restriction of the walk ability.  So a women wearing one fits this appeal...

EDIT:
And yes, since pencil skirt underlines the curves, if the curves are aesthetic, well, the skirt also is. But aesthetics is not about feminity or men would all be ugly and not caring of their fashion. (yet, there is still a long way to go, we are caring about it).

[Like Ra]

Yes, yes, I know what you mean, but you puzzled me by saying "walking":

Walking with heels forced together...

What you are talking about is dominant poses and dominant gestures. Sturdy "grounded" stands, hands akimbo, looking at the opponent downwards, wide gestures, that take space, good at cooking and crafting, etc. Such things are common for "sensory" people, especially "sensory extraverts" (usually they have heavy low jaw, very easy to spot). And yes, they are dominant and patronizing"by nature". Think of Schwarzenegger, Zinedine Zidane, Arjen Robben, Jamie Oliver, Jason Statham, Katy Perry, Madonna - they belong to different types, but they share the same "Extroverted Sensation" element (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Types, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics).

[no smile]

Yes, but this is not the question. The question was : Is pencil skirt first feminine, and could be use to show submissiveness or, as I think, the reverse : submissive and, consequently, show a part of what's commonly accepted as feminine?


Another thought I had this afternoon :
I'm starting to feel like we are just men here speaking about what's femininity without hearing the women's voice...

[Like Ra]

I'm starting to feel like we are just men here speaking about what's femininity without hearing the women's voice...

I consult with my wife from time to time 😉